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Post by DeathsAdvocate (Admin) on Feb 22, 2020 19:34:45 GMT
Imported Trello Card Posted by Anon:
Big strong cards require need counters.
Dispel and removal are two ways to provide counterplay.
But dispel removes the things that make the cards interesting in the first place. So, dispel is sort of boring.
As a general design principle I propose that we create cards that maintain interesting abilities on the board for as long as possible.
In duelyst, I'd argue good examples of removal are:
Demonic Lure/Repulsor Beast (effects are not lost)
Onyx Bear Seal (leaves a 0/2 with interesting ability).
Flash Freeze (minion is simply delayed for a turn).
Sandswhirl reader (adds an effect to the board, unlike hailstone prison)
Sand trap
Bad examples of removal:
Aspect of the Ravager (interesting minions become plain 3/3's)
Blood of Air (its too 'clean' -- works against everything, regardless of what abilities the target card has)
Okay examples of removal:
Martyrdom, Dark Transformation (Dying wishes are preserved).
Instead of dispel I'd like to focus on effects that transfer, copy, or replace card text
For example:
"replace any minions card text with this: 'Rebirth, Frenzy' "
Such a card can do the job of dispel, but unlike dispel, it keeps interesting abilities in play.
In short, I'd prefer we avoid turning minions into boring vanilla's as much as possible. Moreover, I'd prefer that we have few "clean answers" to threats (e.g blood of air), instead preferring removal that maintains or increases complexity on the board.
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Post by DeathsAdvocate (Admin) on Feb 22, 2020 19:57:55 GMT
Imported Comments:
DeathsAdvocate Feb 4 at 10:55 AM (edited)
@attheedge_77 We sort of have these with stuff like Consuming Rebirth.
As for the OP. Duelyst has a delicate balance in this regard the "powerful cards require powerful answers" approach leads to a lot of exciting back and forth play which I am all for.
Now I am not to concerned about the vanilla aspect. Positioning is what makes things interesting, not so much keywords.
That being said I do like the thought of maintaining the board, sadly doing this would require basically starting from scratch. And I am much more in favor of a very familiar game.
I am in theory in favor of this principal but I do not know how well it can be implemented. If we can figure out a way of doing so without gutting the game and balance I am all for it, otherwise probably best not to.
AtTheEdge Feb 3 at 6:34 AM
Largely agree with OP.
Adding to this, I love how Gwent handles this matter.
In Gwent, there are multiple forms of dispel:
LOCK removes any abilities from a unit, while leaving Attack/Health untouched. However, with the counterpart keyword PURIFY, you can essentially unlock units‘ abilities again.
RESET on the other hand leaves unit‘s abilities untouched, but resets the unit to its default attack/health. This can work in both directions (e.g. a 3/6 unit, that is damaged to 3/4 becomes 3/6 again. A 3/6 unit that is boosted to 5/8 becomes 3/6 again as well)
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Post by DeathsAdvocate (Admin) on Feb 22, 2020 21:13:58 GMT
Imported Comments:
Anon:
Sandwirl Reader and Blood of Air redundancy.
1 is a spell, the other one a minion.
1 generates a 2/2 tribal token with Rush, the other one bounces stuff leaving behind a spawning tile and a 3/3 body.
Arguably BoA, with it's cost, the fact that is a single target, and because of the Vet card pool, seems the most balanced.
Sandswirl changed the game giving Vet access to an extremely good tempo/removal tool that can deal with almost as many threats and sometimes even in a better way than BoA.
Is this redundancy?
Is Sandswirl the problem, or BoA?
Chris Feb 5 at 8:58 AM
BoA is a bad card imo. I'd like to get rid of it.
Meanwhile I really like the design of Sandswirl, so I'd like to keep it but maybe reduce its stats or increase the cost.
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Post by smoochallhomies on Feb 25, 2020 0:22:13 GMT
But dispel removes the things that make the cards interesting in the first place. So, dispel is sort of boring. I'd have to disagree. What is and isn't interesting is entirely subjective. You may find those effects interesting but I find them very boring and a hassle. I don't find Owl Beast Sage interesting in the slightest when playing Arcanysts or against Arcanysts. I feel the same way against certain other designs primarily countered by dispel. Even though I'm a wall player myself, I like the fact that EMP exists in the game. I'd like to think that how I play around EMP should set me aside from a beginner who's only recently picked the deck up. The most interesting aspects of the game to me are positioning, making the best plays while maintaining handsize, match up knowledge and in game decisions you make based on that knowledge etc. Owlbeastsmd's Golem Ziran deck while not very strong, features everything that I find interesting about the game. A deck made up of simple easy to understand pieces that's very difficult to master and has a lot of depths to it. Meanwhile a deck like Fault+Kha while made up overly fancy "interesting" effects is incredibily boring to me because there are barely any decisions to be made in game, your win condition is the same no matter what match up and the games are almost identical. Coming back to the main argument, this is why I think dispel is one of the fairest most necessary (if not the most necessary) form of removal in the game and I find it to be the most interesting. It effeciently answers single minion answer or die cards with overbearing effects (like Blood Sworn Gambler) while leaving the more interesting aspects of the game (at least in my humble opinion) intact. |
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Post by DeathsAdvocate (Admin) on Feb 25, 2020 0:27:31 GMT
The most interesting aspects of the game to me are positioning, making the best plays while maintaining handsize, match up knowledge and in game decisions you make based on that knowledge etc. This is why I think dispel is one of the fairest most necessary (if not the most necessary) form of removal in the game and I find it to be the most interesting. It effeciently answers single minion answer or die cards with overbearing effects while leaving the more interesting aspects of the game. Really well put! If I had to chose I will take dispel/transform over hard removal because it can still leave interesting board states, and this is what the game is all about! I mirror your sentiments all around. |
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