Imported Comments:
Qazzquimby Feb 6 at 3:41 PM
@smash_the_hamster That's interesting. I like general identities but like your idea too. I think we should entertain both possibilities when the time comes.
Chris Feb 6 at 2:47 PM (edited)
@qazzquimby Yes, like artifacts, minions and spells just have new class of cards called powers.
You can play them once a turn, and they do X. You keep them until they are replaced or the end of game.
Personally I have always considered it a mistake to use bbs as faction identity. Moreover, when you combine the 3 generals per faction its not clear what the 'identity' is to me.
Vath is big general. Okay I get it! Magmar is the class I play for big fucking dinosaurs and beefcake general. Starhorn -- draw a card for both players? How does this fit what "Magmar" is?
In short, I do not think General BBS provides faction identity. Rather, they provide a identity of each of the generals. I think that is an important distinction.
And Why do we care about supporting 3x generals per faction? What does it actually add the game?
By putting these powers as cards I think we have more flexibility to play with the idea (e.g we can make 9 mana bbs powers, if we want).
If we go down the 2-draw + replace route, people should get hold of these powers early on.
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DeathsAdvocate Feb 5 at 3:45 PM
@qazzquimby @smash_the_hamster
Stripping away a feature and Identity does not feel good. BBs provides a reason for multiple generals and was all together a great addition. However I do agree that that they are a touch needlessly complicated, but it could do a number on balance just letting them happen every turn.
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Qazzquimby Feb 5 at 3:27 PM
@smash_the_hamster 1. Do you mean remove the concept of BBS and add them in as spells just like any other spells?
2. I agree with this.
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Chris Feb 5 at 9:09 AM (edited)
Alright, here is the two ways I'd like to change BBS:
1) Convert them to cards people put in their decks
2) Make them playable every turn.
(1) If they are cards, the game is easier to balance since if we need to tweak the power level we are tweaking a card, not a faction identity.
with bbs as cards, we can add more of them, allowing for more interesting deck design.
Fourthly, due to the inherent randomness of drawing cards, bbs as a cards will help avoid repetitive games.
In short I want more of Variax, Geomancer, Cloudcaller, etc
(2) The current duelyst rules for BBS are confusing as hell:
Starting on the 3rd turn get a BBS every other turn after that. Once you hit 9 mana you get it every turn.
Whereas in hearthstone it is simple: 2 mana, play once a turn.
If it takes a small paragraph to describe a mechanic, its probably a bad idea.
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Qazzquimby Feb 4 at 10:23 PM
At Faie, yes her BBS changed the feel of the late game, but I personally never took issue with that. You can't play the same game against her that you could against other generals, but it's not impossible to adapt to that.
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DeathsAdvocate Feb 4 at 5:35 PM
atheistmantis Faie is one of the few sources of burn I do not take issue with. The only BBs that I think need attention are Rags, due to being a bit over tuned. And Saj/Ilena for being undertuned.
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Atheistmantis Feb 4 at 4:48 PM
If we are talking about BBS I think most generals are fine.
The only exceptions that I make due to being over-tuned are Ragnora, Reva and Faie.
-Ragnora: Rippers are too much of a threat for just being a BBS token. The combo of Celerity and Rebirth has showed how OP these tokens are, and how easy is to steal victories with relatively little effort, while forcing players to implement their decks with solutions and constantly worry for the dangers of a token. In both Ladder and Gauntlet, Rippers are way too strong.
-Reva: perhaps less insidious than Rippers, the Heartseekers are still a dormient dangerous threat which is pretty much tolerable in Ladder, but very obnoxious in gauntlet: leave one alive, and soon after you'll see it campered away with some Jux/MDS, equipped with a Killing Edge, single handedly winning games if it goes (like often happens) unanswered.
-Faie: the most "wrong" BBS of Duelyst. I don't think any general should have the default ability of shooting directly the other general and/or have such AoE potential. While I appreciate the enphasis on the positioning, I think her BBS should have some very different mechanic.
Summoning a Warbird token, maybe with Flaying and the ability of stunning unit?
Something that can manipulate the board, so to implement the use of minions with Infiltrate?
Some kind of ping like Cassyva, but with Stun effects?
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Chris Feb 3 at 10:09 AM
@qazzquimby I'll make the case closer to the time
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Qazzquimby Feb 2 at 3:08 PM
@auroreon I like those kinds of ideas. I've kind of researched card games in the past, and there are a lot of interesting ideas that were never fully explored. I hope we can really dig into those sorts of options when planning the successor.
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Qazzquimby Feb 2 at 3:06 PM
@smash_the_hamster You have to try to convince people.
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Chris Feb 1 at 9:20 PM
bad fuck them
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Auroreon Feb 1 at 8:17 PM
In general they are liked, simple to iterate on and offer easily recognizable identity to players and deck types. So using them to aid developing heroes is the real discussion I think.
I would like to see more choices and modular elements in an advanced, post Duelyst game, beyond just altering the deck.
One idea is: Each hero has a 3 unique slots for special features. Each special feature has a distinct type that is compatible with with each slot. The effects that these features can offer could be: adding an ability, adding flat stats, trigger effects (such as on low health) and many others. These can be faction specific or perhaps there can be betrayal mods that can come from another faction but consume two or more slots.
Cost and benefit and risk and reward are valuable trade offs here.
Just the start of more ideas, but in summary, yes they offer valuable design space and are the starting point for further iteration on game design.
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Casdrop Feb 1 at 7:35 PM
Also I love Kaleos bbs so that's enough reason to keep them
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Casdrop Feb 1 at 7:35 PM
If we are gonna have multiple generals per faction we either need hero powers, effects or stats variations to distinguish them
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DeathsAdvocate Feb 1 at 7:03 PM
They are awesome, well implemented, and provide loads of identity.
