Imported Comments:
Chris Feb 20 at 4:28 AM (edited)
sometimes its worth zooming out and consider what the intention of mana tiles was:
Balance first turn advantage of player 1
Encourage combat, dissuade turtling.
I'd argue that the tiles were not exceptional at either. Notice that a decent chuck of the time p2 would given up the centre and try to grab the top or bottom spring (we literally called this opening the turtle). You never really want to play a 3 drop on tile since it wastes the mana and is vulnerable to counter. So, you'd often only play centrally is you happened to have a 3+1 or 2+2drop hand.
Are there better ways to stop turtling? Even with mana springs, an aggro deck wants to rush forward, as does an a infiltrate deck. So maybe, a better way of pushing for combat is to build decks that benefit from aggressive pushing. start generals a tile closer, etc.
Finally, I'd argue we will get some of what we want as strategy emerges. For example, if you get rid of mana tiles I'd still push forward. Why? Because, just like in chess, space is important and you get more space by occupying the centre. Even without the springs to fight over, hiding in the corner is likely to be a sub-optimal play.
as for balancing p1/p2. I suspect p2's starting with 1 extra mana had a more profound effect on win-rate than mana springs ever did.
Moreover, any collectible that we put on the board is more likely to benefit the first player, since they are the ones with the 'extra' turn.
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Atheistmantis Feb 4 at 6:09 PM
@deathsadvocate I'd like to see more recent statistics on the win rate of Player 1s and 2s in the meta of the last 1-2 years, considering Mythron cards and so on...
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DeathsAdvocate Feb 4 at 5:55 PM (edited)
atheistmantis Aggro decks or four cost focused lists prefer going first still. P2 normally has an inherent disadvantage and thus the system, while slower lists prefer player 2, I think this is ultimately pretty even. CPG stated that the p1 p2 winrates were very even at some point.
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Atheistmantis Feb 4 at 4:51 PM
It feels sometimes as P2 are a bit advantaged compared to P1. I don't know if this is encouraged by the types of deck we saw played during the past 1-2 years, but if something could be done to modify the current status, I wouldn't be against it.
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Qazzquimby Feb 4 at 1:04 PM
@smash_the_hamster Absolutely. Flexibility and reuse is worth planning for.
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DeathsAdvocate Feb 4 at 10:43 AM (edited)
@smash_the_hamster I only see encouraging a balanced curve and tempo based game-play as a benefit not a cost.
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Chris Feb 4 at 10:25 AM
@qazzquimby I think best approach it to make sure when we got it in its done in such a way that we can easily add, remove, spawn in etc tiles.
Maybe we could have a configuration in file in a Json that defines such things??
If we could "json it" rather then coding it in then game designers/testers could explore the space.
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Qazzquimby Feb 3 at 9:04 PM
@smash_the_hamster That's a good point. It's very hard for us to make good decisions without testing all of them. I expect that more general design discussions of what we consider healthy is more productive. Feel free to weigh in on the game design principles list.
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Chris Feb 3 at 8:28 PM
@qazzquimby Perhaps the other reason why tempo was a thing in Duelyst 1 was the the power of removal. If removal is weaker, then maybe its possible to play big dudes and win.
I dunno, its a complex dynamic system. you change one thing and the consequences are unpredicatable
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Qazzquimby Feb 3 at 3:33 PM
@smash_the_hamster Hypothetically, can you think of ways you would be happy while leaving them in? I don't know about the density of two drops specifically, but people have been in favor of tempo and minion based gameplay in other threads. What is your stance on tempo gameplay in general?
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Chris Feb 3 at 10:18 AM
The disadvantage of tiles is that is pushes the game in a more tempo direction.
More or less every good deck I can think of ran 9 or more 2 drops. That's because missing a turn 1 play makes winning difficult.
In short, there is a cost to having them in the game.
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Dio Bunado Feb 1 at 8:25 PM
I support mana tiles
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Qazzquimby Feb 1 at 8:24 PM
I'm for mana tiles. They're simple, and make the first couple of turns much more interesting.
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Casdrop Feb 1 at 7:44 PM
I like mana tiles, they're good design that promote proactive play though I hate how when you deny them to your opponent they usually go to waste, maybe that can be solved somehow
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acp_trello Feb 1 at 2:26 PM
mana tiles were a really good innovation to discourage turtling and unfortunately gave big advantage to certain opening hands
I still think it is worth keeping
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DeathsAdvocate Jan 30 at 12:10 PM
Current system is pretty good.
